Talk:Dreamachine

Gysin/Sommerville

I don't think Brion Gysin was either Canadian or Muslim and I haven't seen any evidence that Ian Sommerville was a mathematician, so I've removed those adjectives from the first sentence... they might well be vandalism. Nick 12:00, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nick, thanks for your efforts in trying to verify the information on the page. However, I don't think the original author was vandalizing the article. According to biographical information on the net, Gysin was "English by birth and Canadian by upbringing". His Swiss father migrated to Edmonton, Alberta. Gysin appears to have gone back and forth between the States and Canada, although he finished public school in Alberta and lived there until he was 15. Gysin spent some time in Tangier, Morocco, and was heavily influenced by the Islamic culture there. The Dreamachine is based upon an Islamic design, and his recordings of Sufi trance music and his cut-up poems are as well. I'm going to try and collect some more information when I have time. Most of the information on the net states that Ian Sommerville was a mathematician, and I wonder if this is the same person that is currently a professor in computer science, possibly in the U.K. --Viriditas | Talk 07:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wow! Sorry, it looks like I was catastrophically wrong... check out [1] for Gysin - confirms the Canadian reference ("school in Canada"). For Sommerville you're right, the majority of websites refer to him as a Mathematician, I can't find anything solid though. I'm sure you're right that the group were influenced by Islamic culture in Tangier but I wonder if we can say that the Dreamachine was actually based on an Islamic design? In any case, sorry for deleting based on my recollections of Burroughs rather than checking first... Nick 09:53, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Aloha. Upon further examination, it appears to be true that Gysin was not a muslim. In an interview, he states: never was much immersed truly into Islam, or I would've become a Moslem, and probably still be there...uh, it was most particularly the music that interested me. [2]. I'm still looking for information on Sommerville. Gysin (and many others) refer to Sommerville's computer program, so I am fairly certain this is him. Gysin's dreamachine design incorporated sufic geometry, so claiming it is based on an Islamic design is accurate. There was an extensive web page that outlined the history of the dreamachine along with photos of the geometry in question, but the site has completely disappeared. I suspect there was some kind of copyright violation. --Viriditas | Talk 09:52, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hello. Ian Sommerville died about 20(?) years ago. I got this info via a friend that got it via another person... so i haven't any details. The informations you can find on the web are about another person with the same name. When i'll get something more precise, i'll post here. -- a. 217.11.33.254

Aloha. Thanks for your comment, but unfortunately, FOAF data doesn't hold much weight here.  :-( If you can find any type of source for this claim (either online or off) please let us know. Thanks in advance for trying to research this topic. Your help is certainly appreciated. --Viriditas | Talk 07:21, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

re-hello. found this interview to a.mckenzie, where he says that sommerville died in a car accident... http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/option.html // the discussion is not really centered on sommerville, and the fact comes out as a detail... maybe from here we can find more? hope so. -- a. 19:01, 30 Mar 2005 GMT+2

Thanks for the link. I am trying to confirm the veracity of this information. --Viriditas | Talk 11:38, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since I couldn't confirm anything, is it safe to assume he's dead? --Viriditas 13:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

john geiger states (in chapel of extreme experience, page 90) "in 1976, ian sommerville was fatally injured in a moto vehicle accident near bath, england, at age thirty-six"

Thanks, that gives me something to go on. Sorry to hear about Ian, though. --Viriditas 11:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Photos

Hi, Just added a photo at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dreamachine1.jpg with sime comments and links. More dreamachine photos on line at : http://www.inter-zone.org/catal1.html http://www.inter-zone.org/dm.html http://www.interpc.fr/mapage/westernlands/ http://www.inter-zone.org/dmclass.html

Isabelle Baudron-Aubert baudron@interpc.fr

Oh, um, hey, I'm not too good at this sort of thing, but I put a picture on Commons, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Scan0023.jpg, and I don't know how to put it with the other dream machine pictures. I was hoping someone with perhaps more, er, prowess could help me out. 'Ppreciate it.

But does it work?

The article mentions that it 'claims' to induce lucid dreaming but doesn't really mention whether people actually find success with it or not. Some more information here would be nice -Averisk 11:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I've added it to the task list. --Viriditas 13:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

are you asking if the dreamachine 'works' (= does 'something') or do you want to know specifically if the dreamachine can 'induce lucid dreaming' ? effects of flicker have been scientifically studied and documented: there are many writings about (grey walters for example - also quoted by john geiger, whose book 'chapel of extreme experience' is easily available). --7Hz, 5 January 2006

I was just curious what the actual documented effects of it were, whether that be lucid dreaming, relaxation, or whatever. I don't really care what the makers claim that it does. It sounds like you know a thing or two about that, maybe you could add something... Anyway, just a suggestion. Averisk 19:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

well, what i know about the effects is because i'm a dreamachine user - if you are not affected with epilepsy i suggest you to try. it's the best way to understand what it can do. otherwise if you are looking for 'scientifical' accounts (eg. about psychophysical effects), the reports i was referring to are actually research documents/reports g. walters made while studiyng the effects of flicker (he did use a stroboscopic device with flashing lightbulbs). this was prior to gysin's 'invention'...his book (grey walters) 'the living brain' is no longer printed but should be available used, even via amazon. HTH. --7Hz, 11 January 2006

Are there any lingering affects afterwards? The article says the effects stop after you open your eyes; is there any lag? --24.252.147.48 03:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

hello. please note: the dreamachine effect has nothing to do with feeling like you have taken drugs. and if you don't feel anything, well no one states it will work for everyone. personally i find the experience very pleasant and not boring at all. it is not the same thing as dreaming, but i have impressive visions and physical sensations. as for the comment about money given back, where did you buy your dreamachine, and what happened? why didn't you build it yourself? --7Hz 7 july 2006 (sorry i couldn't log-in...)

yes a strobe light flashing at the proper frequency will do it. has a strobe light worked for you? have you tried the dreamachine with a lightbulb stronger than 60watts? do you have a 78rpm or 45rpm dreamachine, and with how many holes in each row? --7Hz 14 july 2006

It does not matter about the spacing of the holes, it won’t work. There are free plans you can download right from the web. I once had some notes from a class on why a strobe light works, but I can’t find that information online, and I no longer have the notes. I believe either the light itself from a light bulb is wrong, or the timing is wrong or both.--Robert551 04:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC) I have done further research and I have found that flickering which is more random such as sunlight coming into the window of an indoor pool. When the sun reflects upon the water that is being splashed about by swimmers there is more of an hypnotic effect, then with the dream machine because the flickering is too regular and not random enough to produce interesting dancing shapes of light behind one's closed eyes. Brion gysin original found that looking out the window of a bus as the sunlight flickered off and on from behind things like trees? That flicking is what inspired him to create a machine that could attempt to replicate the same experiences. But, I could be that sunlight coming through windows are the best possible experiences and not a machine with a light bulb. Robert551 (talk) 05:45, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

i was not referring to the spacing of the holes, but about how many holes in a row. anyway. i don't see how a lightbulb differs from a strobe - a strobe can be made with a flickering lightbulb. a "strobe" will produce the "dreamachine effect" if it pulses at a frequency below 30 Hertz (cicles per second). Grey Walter wrote about this in 1946. there are many papers on brainwaves, the EEG, FFR, a good number available on the internet. you keep saying it doesn't work, maybe you should add for me.

I would be willing to change my statement to the dreamachine does not work for me or for many other people. I found it boring, and the flicking was too regular to be interesting. I am sure they are some people who find it relaxing, but it does not create an altered state by itself. One would have to consecrate and mediate which can be done with or without a dreammachine to reach an altered state of consciousness. It does not automatically induce such a state as the name "Machine" implies. Robert551 (talk) 05:45, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I tried the online version in this article and I felt a bit of how I feel when I'm entering a lucid dream. What some people describe as nausea is actually the loss of the sense of your body. When you are asleep you do not feel your body, and thus you feel as if you are floating. This floating sensation gives way to a spinning feeling, what I like to think of as a paranoia, "if you cannot feel yourself how do you know you are not spinning?!" is a nice way to explain it. So you ask, "does it work"? my answer is "it can." Just have to be open-minded and know what is going on in your head somewhat. --Rewen 09:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

When i was 17 years old .Resting before a baseball game in our livingroom floor with the sun at about a 45 degree angle from my eyes,shineing through the window I streched my arms out in front of my face and over my head.I noticed the flicker of light when my hands blocked the sun from my eyes was ,cool.I decided to move them back and forth quickly and see what happend. Patterns and colors of some specific geometry danced on the back of my eyelids .I couldnt do that all day ,my arms got tired and i had a baseball gaME to play.It was very relaxing ,and the longer i did it the more vivid the patterns became.Also ive notice when rideing as a passenger on a vehicle alongside some trees with the sun behind them ,where repetidly it peaks through ,face the sun and close your eyes enjoy the ride. I dont have a dreamachine ,but i want one .Those experiences tell me there is much more to behold. aj242008@yahoo.com ,Username -waydeep thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waydeep (talk • contribs) 15:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Portable flicker machines

could someone please explain what are these? are you referring to so-called 'brainmachines' (these glasses with flickering LEDs). and also what means 'air-propelled viewmaster type' ? thank you. --7Hz, 11 January 2006

Hi. I was not describing a "brainmachine", however they may fit into this category. The portable flicker machine that I was referring to is similar to the View-Master system: you hold the device up to your eyes in broad daylight, using the sun as a light source. There's a hole where you blow air into the device, which spins a flicker disk over your closed eyelids. —Viriditas | Talk 14:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Edits by Riefenstahl / 84.191.xxx.xxx

Reverting to a version from 19 September 2005 is not helpful. Please do not do that. Discuss any changes here, please. —Viriditas | Talk 01:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

frequency

I've read a lot about the dream machine, but have seen different info about at what frequency the flashing will create the desired effect. Most sources seem to say about 20 flashes per second (different from this article). Sources usually claim that this stmulates or matches "your brain waves." But WHICH brain waves? The conclusions are wildly different. I would love to see some more precise info.Flange P. Vibrator 21:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

You may want to check The Third Mind by Gysin and Burroughs. (I do not have my copy at hand, though). In an interview with Gysin, he talks about Burroughs giving him Grey Walter's book The Living Brain after the famous "bus episode". In that book, Walter (a neurologist) talks about the Alpha Waves frequency band, situated more or less between 7 to 13 pulses per second (or Hertz). Walter was a pioneer in electroencephalograpy, and in his experiments he tested stroboscopic light, flashing at different frequecies in front of various subjects (testers) with their eyes closed. He noticed that the external stimulus (the flicker) affected the electrical activity of the brain, making it shift towards the frequency of the flashes. If i understand, this is what is called "frequency-followwing response" and/or "evoked potential". Walters also noticed that the brain produces vivid and bright images, patters, forms etc when its electrical frequency is situated around 7-13 Hertz. Gysin read that on The Living Brain and managed with Ian Sommerville to build a setup that may create the same effect. Alpha waves have been discovered by Hans Berger. The article at [3], says alpha waves are "electromagnetic oscillations", but it is not correct, because the signals recorded with an EEG machine are just electrical potentials and measured in Volts.

Here are some sources and links:

the "bus episode":

"Had a transcendental storm of colour visions today in the bus going to Marseilles. We ran though a long avenue of trees and I close my eyes against the setting sun. An overwhelming flood of intensely bright colours exploded behind my eyelids: a multi-dimensional kaleidoscope whirling out through space. I was swept out of time. I was out in a world of infinite number. The vision stopped abruptly as we left the trees. Was that a vision? What happened to me?" -extract from the diary of Brion Gysin 21/12/1958 - from "dreamachine plans - created by brion gysin", temple press

"Brain waves, minute electrical oscillations associated with brain activity, can be measured accurately and graphically by the electroencephalograph (EEG) machine. EEG records show that brain rhythms divide into two groups according to frequency. One of these groups, the alpha or scanning rhythms, is strongest when the brain is unoccupied, searching for a pattern, and weakest during purposeful thinking, eyes open studying a pattern. The strength type of rhythms vary between individuals. The EEG records of some primitive peoples are similar to those of a ten year old in our society. Variations occur with age. The alpha rhythms do not appear in children until they are about four years old." - Ian Sommerville, 'Flicker' - from "dreamachine plans - created by brion gysin", temple press

• [4] - Grey Walter's biography

• [5] - about electroencephalography and frequencies

• RE/Search #4/5, (RE/Search Publications)

• Dreamachine plans - created by Brion Gysin, (temple press)

• Gysin & Burroughs, The Third Mind

Elamita 00:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Vendors

Sites that sell these also offer a lot of other devices with extraordinary claims, such as a "Wishing Machine." Maybe the purpose is to put more hope in a different device if just buying the Dreamachine doesn't work.

Patent

According to Flickers of the Dreamachine, Gysin received the patent number PV86828 on July 18, 1961. According to this webpage, the patent number is P.V.868,281. I searched both numbers on http://www.uspto.gov/, but none of these two numbers seems to be correct. Elamita

"authorized" seller(s)

someone wrote on the to-do list that mr. woodard is the "sole Burroughs authorized Dreamachine" maker... to my modest knowledge, this is untrue. i do not want to minimize mr. woodard activity, just say i think there is no such thing as an "authorized" dreamachine maker: 1, the dreamachine has been patented by Gysin around 1961. the patent number is cited in two published books, but i've been unable to find them on the US patents website (see section above). it is unclear at least for me, if this patent is still valid. 2, around 1974 gysin sold(or gave?) his plans to art dealer carl laszlo to commercialize the dreamachine, but laszlo built only 20 of them for some art galleries. this is stated for example in a gysin biography by ramuncho matta, a close gysin late-collaborator. 3, around 1984 gysin collaborated with genesis p-orridge and andrew mckenzie to the first commercially available dreamachine. as both artists (p-orridge & mckenzie) are still active, someone should contact them to investigate further. 3, french-based artists étant-donnés have stated in some interviews that gysin gave them personally a copy of his plans and considered them as sort-of "heirs". again, they should be contacted and asked for details. my two cents. Elamita 14:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

hello. later this year, a definitive edition/re-release of "the hafler trio and thee temple ov psychick youth present brion gysin's dreamachine", complete with plastic dreamachine to the precise specifications approved by Gysin before his death and DVD of archive footage and documentary, will be published by Soleilmoon. many of the questions raised here will hopefully be answered there. it would be nice if you could provide in your references some mention that we originally released a dreammachine kit, book, LP and CD on KK Records, Belgium, in 1989, as well as a video. there was also a performance that was the world's first exposition of the dreamachine with sound material designed to give similar effects as with the visual. here are some links: http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/dreamachine/ and http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/dream.html. many of the questions posed here on this page are answered in those links and the links they in turn lead to. regards, --andrew m.mckenzie 213.35.235.249 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Gareth Spor

It appears Gareth Spor has added information about himseld and his "updated" Dreamachine to this page. I suggest his contribution to be deleted, as it is more advertisement for Gareth than information contributing to the subject. Opinions? --Qmwpeto (talk) 09:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed it pending WP:RS. Viriditas (talk) 10:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I just deleted the picture of his machine as well from the "Images" section - not relevant without the text. --Qmwpeto (talk) 13:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't have a problem with the image if it is appropriately licensed. Viriditas (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Pattern Induced Flicker Colors

Should there be a mention of Fechner Color (Pattern Induced Flicker Colors):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fechner_color

Is there any relationship between a Dream-Machine and Benham's Top?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benham%27s_top

32.97.110.142 (talk) 17:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)Dave

IMHO yes, this should be mentioned in some way. At least in the "see also" section. Aynway, the relation I see is that you have a monochrome device with a white light that produces all the colors of the visible spectrum. Elamita (talk) 15:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

"Scientist" Sommerville

I reworded the description of Sommerville as a "scientist" from the lead, since the supporting reference "Everything is Permuted -- Inside Out: The Mysticism of dreamachines" merely says

The dreamachine was a collaborative creation between Brion Gysin and Ian Sommerville, the classical collision and collusion of the artist and the scientist.

which to any reasonable reader means no more than "they collaborated on it, Gysin from the artistic side and Sommerville from the scientific". Everything in our coverage suggests Sommerville had a technical background, e.g. enuf to see what math to do in choosing the record-player speed, enuf to write a program to manipulate text using a cookbook random-number-generator, enuf to understand the specs on high-end recording equipment and perform (or oversee) maintenance on it. If he had a B.S. degree in math, that would probably make him a mathematician (B.A. maybe not, M.S. pretty surely), but not a scientist. There is no reason to believe he was a scientist.
--Jerzy•t 05:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

• In fact, he was born in 1939 or '40, so he was between 20 and 22 when he did the Dm in '61. Tho he probably was not in the original 1957 contingent of the Beat Hotel folks, there's no reason to assume he was even 18 before joining them (and presumably having ended his education). If he had a degree, it was probably bcz he was a f'g genius who finished college when his peers were finishing high school. Maybe so, and maybe it was getting saturated with drugs that kept him from ever becoming notable except as a hanger-on. If so, find real sources, desperately needed in this case where "inventing" an only vaguely defined, let alone demonstrably effective, application for a technology that comes from the 19th century is being inferred from poetic PR.
  --Jerzy•t 07:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
  

Hello. Sommerville was in Paris in 1959, and he was living at the Beat Hotel. http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/beathotel/ has photos of Sommerville in said Hotel. Cf. also John Geiger books. Regards, Elamita (talk) 15:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

references

Hello, I think the article should include a mention of the first commercially available Dreamachine, produced by the Temple ov thee Psychick Youth & Andrew M. McKenzie of the Hafler Trio.

Here are the detals:

Hafler Trio, The & Thee Temple Ov Psychick Youth - Present Brion Gysin's Dreamachine. Published by KK records (Belgium, 1989) - catalog number KK 015. 72 pages booklet + Dreamachine template + audio CD containing three tracks to be used with the Dreamachine.

cf: http://www.discogs.com/Hafler-Trio-The--Thee-Temple-Ov-Psychick-Youth-Present-Brion-Gysins-Dreamachine/release/808049

Also, I noticed that the link to the 10111.org (http://10111.org) webpage disappeared from the external links. This group is manufacturing Dreamachines replicas, and they reproduced two old models (prototypes?) from the sixties. In their database, there's quite a lot of information. Shouldn't this link be re-included?

Regards, Elamita (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

further reading

The external link included in this section (A detailed explanation of how to build a dream machine By Dan Petley) is not so detailed. It's rather poorly written and misleading: it's not impossible to find a cardboard sheet of the proper size; plans are well available on the internet; the included templates are "borrowed" without citing the source; overall, it's biased. Shouldn't this be removed?

External links of interest are:

http://www.noah.org/wiki/Dreamachine

http://www.inter-zone.org/dm.html

Regards, Elamita (talk) 07:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

photo caption

What does "homemade version semi-off" mean? Шизомби (talk) 16:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll fix it. The original author mean to write, "not spinning, lit internally". I'm changing it now, as I just saw this. Viriditas (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Credulous article

This article repeats a lot of claims ("induces alpha waves" "lucid dreaming" etc.) but provides no evidence except personal testimony (and there are a couple editors here on the talk page that seemed to follow that pattern). Has there been any clinical validation of these claims, published in reliable sources? If there has, it should be in the article; if not, that should be noted as well. In particular, claims like "The frequency of the pulsations corresponds to the electrical oscillations normally present in the human brain while relaxing" should at least be referenced. · rodii · 00:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)