Talk:Nader Shah

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

Add nationality - Azerbaijani Turk Umbayev Tofig (talk) 19:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: No source for this. Azerbaijani was not an ethnonym and especially not nationality back then [1]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Origins

@Golden: Sorry, didn't pay attention on this bit and accidently removed it ("Although he later learned Persian, he always preferred using Turkic in everyday speech. He learned to read and write as an adult."). But why is this necessary? "Nader's native tongue was a southern Oghuz dialect, i.e. "Turkish of Azerbaijan". It does not bring any valuable information, I fail to see how it is better than "The Afshar dialect is categorized either as a dialect of the Southern Oghuz group or a dialect of Azerbaijani". Stöber doesn't need to directly mention Nader; We already know he belongs to the Afshar tribe, unless you mean to say that Nader spoke a completely different dialect than his tribesmen. HistoryofIran (talk) 19:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

It's an interesting bit of trivia since it deviates from the usual practice of kings of Persia/Iran using Persian as their primary language. It also demonstrates how Nader's roots continued to influence him even after he ascended to the throne of Iran. I find it interesting and I believe most readers would too. The part about him learning to read and write can probably be moved to a section about his Early life. As for the quote from Minorsky, how can it be deemed devoid of valuable information? It specifically addresses the tongue Nader spoke, a topic on which sources are scarce. In response to "We already know he belongs to the Afshar tribe, unless you mean to say that Nader spoke a completely different dialect than his tribesmen", given our cautious approach to avoid making assumptions to the extent that we don't even link "Turkish of Azerbaijan" to the Azerbaijani language article, I think we should seek sources that directly address Nader's language rather than a general source discussing his tribe's dialect. — Golden ^talk 20:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think you partly misunderstood me. I removed this on accident when I removed all the previous information of that section: "Although he later learned Persian, he always preferred using Turkic in everyday speech. He learned to read and write as an adult." As for the language bit, what assumptions are exactly being made? Nader belonged to the Afshar tribe, which is obviously also mentioned in Stöber [2]. The reason that "Turkish of Azerbaijan" is not linked to Azerbaijani language because it doesn't refer that and that the category of the Afshar dialect is disputed (which the information I added adresses), but we have already been through that bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I mean, sure, you can re-add Stöber. My opposition was to the removal of Minorsky since he is the only source that directly addresses what Nader spoke. — Golden ^talk 20:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but can you please address my comment regarding Minorsky? I fail to see why it should stay when we have the bit from Stöber. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:17, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I thought I did in my first comment. I'll paste it here: It specifically addresses the tongue Nader spoke, a topic on which sources are scarce. To elaborate: Minorsky is an important source, so I think it would be remiss to exclude what he had to say on Nader's language in the section of the article where we discuss the language spoken by Nader. — Golden ^talk 20:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I already responded to that at 20:12. Stöber already adresses the dialect of the Afshars, I fail too see how a direct (and frankly more vague) mention of Nader makes it special, he was ultimately a Afshar. Moreover, Minorsky calls it a Southern Oghuz dialect, which Azerbaijani is not part of. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Because it's from an important scholar and provides a different description of the language compared to Stöber. We're not confined to using one source. We can use both and write how different sources have described it. — Golden ^talk 20:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

But that's literally what Stöber does here, he presents both sides. What does Minorsky do different here? --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I interpret Minorsky's quote as differing from the perspectives represented by Stöber. As you mentioned, it's ambiguous and thus open to various interpretations. I don't see any harm in including his viewpoint here. However, I won't prolong this discussion. Have a pleasant day. — Golden ^talk 20:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

And what interpretation is that? If you are not interested in continuing this discussion, then I see no reason to remove it. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:48, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m not uninterested, I just don’t have time. I thought this would be a quick fix when I joined the discussion, but clearly not and I unfortunately don't have the time to discuss it any further. Feel free to add back Stöber. — Golden ^talk 20:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

And thats fair, you dont have to reply to me as fast as possible. I doubt this discussion is going to take up that much time, the reason for its current length is more due to misunderstandings. If you can resume your participation before 30 days passes, that would be great. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Joseph von Semlin

@Aintabli: Hi. This not-so-well sourced article Joseph von Semlin says that he was the "reputed son of Nader Shah", which was why I added the question mark. I've myself yet to find any information about him in relevant studies about Nader Shah, including the most prominent biographies on him, the Nadir Shah: A Critical Study Based Mainly upon Contemporary Sources. and The Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh, then you can revert my edit for now. Aintabli (talk) 18:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! HistoryofIran (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The Kolah-E-Naderi

The section on Nader's religious policy states that "Among his reforms was the introduction of what came to be known as the kolah-e Naderi. This was a hat with four peaks which symbolised the first four caliphs of Islam". This cites Axworthy and Tucker as it's reference. However, Axworthy in page 76 of "The Sword of Persia" (states the complete opposite of what is cited to be his view) that some "believe that the four points of Nader's version had a religious meaning, but it seems more likely that...they signified the four corners of the territories he aimed to conquer". This thus completely goes against the citation as nowhere in the pages cited is it said that the crown had a religious connotation to it but was rather political. Tucker however does mention that the crown did in fact have the religious connotation as stated in the article. It would thus be better to expand on this and mention the alternative view of the crown symbolising "Persia,India,Turkestan and Khwarezm" (found on page 76 of "The Sword of Persia"). Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 20:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2024

in personality section the the depraved MAHMUD SHAH is wrongly mentioned, correct one is depraved MUHAMMAD SHAH. Hiteshiscoolll (talk) 21:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@Hiteshiscoolll Fixed that, nice catch. Noorullah (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Language

@Beshogur: Hello. Can you please elaborate [3];

I disagree, that's not what Minorsky says.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

The discussion about its classification is another topic. (also that sentence doesn't make sense because you took it from Afshar dialect, and doesn't even talk about Nadir Shah)

Are you implying that Nader Shah of the Afshar tribe, did not speak the language/dialect of his tribe? HistoryofIran (talk) 21:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I got no access to that source (Stöber). I thought you copied it from Afshar dialect (about its classification). Can you say me what it exactly states?

About the source you removed of Minorsky, he uses "Turkish of Azerbayjan", doesn't say "Nader spoke Afshar". Meanwhile most classify Afshar tongue as a dialect of Azerbaijani. I don't see anything vague here. Beshogur (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I got no access to that source (Stöber). I thought you copied it from Afshar dialect (about its classification). Can you say me what it exactly states?

Not sure what that will help with, but sure; "Linguistically, Afshārī is classified as a dialect belonging to the South Oghuz group of Turkic languages (southwestern branch of Turkic) (Johanson, History of Turkic, 82–3), or else as a dialect of South Azerbaijani (Azeri)."

About the source you removed of Minorsky, he uses "Turkish of Azerbayjan", doesn't say "Nader spoke Afshar".

Yes, he also says that its a Southern Oghuz dialect, which Azeri is not.

Meanwhile most classify Afshar tongue as a dialect of Azerbaijani.

It's disputed per the citations in Afshar dialect. Not even the two citations we're talking about (fully) supports this claim. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean, the thing here is, your source doesn't talk about Nadir Shah. So it's totally out of context. I'm not arguing under which classification Afshar tongue is. Beshogur (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

[4] wasn't this a discussion from 2023? Idk what's the issue here now?

Nadir’s native language could not be “ Turki or Eastern Turkish ”. As an Afshar he surely spoke a southern Turcoman dialect, similar to that of all the Afshars scattered throughout Persia, i.e. in usual parlance, “the Turkish of Azarbayjan.” The Afshars were certainly an Oghuz, and not a Mongol tribe. Beshogur (talk) 23:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the discussion was from 2023, but as you can see it was never resolved due to the opposing party not having time to discuss. Are you implying that Nader Shah of the Afshar tribe, did not speak the language/dialect of his tribe? That sounds pretty WP:EXTRAORDINARY. It goes without saying, but Nader Shah is also mentioned when Stöber talks about the history of the Afshars. And who are you quoting right now? Minorsky? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Your source and text doesn't makes sense since it doesn't mention Nadir Shah at all. Isn't this original research? And yes, quoting Minorsky. Personally I don't even know how this tongue sounds, whether if it's a separate language or a dialect. Similar thing applies for Sonqori dialect or Chaharmahali Turkic. Personally I'm not an expert on this issue.

Are you implying that Nader Shah of the Afshar tribe, did not speak the language/dialect of his tribe? I think the language Nadir Shah spoke would fall under Ajem Turkic, which was a bunch of mutually intelligible dialects. But the thing here is Minorsky calls it "Turkish of Azarbayjan", meaning Azerbaijani language. Because not extensive searches were made at his time whether those dialects are separate language or not.

"Nadir's mother tongue was Turkic" (probably 100s of sources mention this), but this would make it more vague. Beshogur (talk) 23:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Also didn't Nadir Shah's ancestors (and those Qizilbash tribes) move from Azerbaijan region as mentioned by various sources? Beshogur (talk) 23:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Your source and text doesn't makes sense since it doesn't mention Nadir Shah at all. Isn't this original research?

No, as I said, Nader Shah was an Afshar, mentioned in the source about Afshars, where Stöbber also talks about their dialect. It doesn't get anymore obvious. If you think Nader Shah didn't speak the language/dialect of his own tribe, please prove it through WP:RS.

Personally I don't even know how this tongue sounds, whether if it's a separate language or a dialect. Similar thing applies for Sonqori dialect or Chaharmahali Turkic. Personally I'm not an expert on this issue.

That's ok, we rely on WP:RS anyways.

But the thing here is Minorsky calls it "Turkish of Azarbayjan", meaning Azerbaijani language. Because not extensive searches were made at his time whether those dialects are separate language or not.

Except he says "southern Turcoman dialect", i.e. a dialect of Southern Oghuz, which you have now changed to Turkoman [5]. If it isn't the Oghuz languages he is referring to, I assume you have any WP:RS which talks about this so called, unique "southern Turcoman dialect"? And you're right, there was less research made back then. There is more now, by scholars such as Stöbber, who has a whole source dedicated to the Afshars, which you reverted.

Also didn't Nadir Shah's ancestors (and those Qizilbash tribes) move from Azerbaijan region as mentioned by various sources?

Yes, I added/rewrote that in this article. But let's not go down the WP:SYNTH route. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:01, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you give me the quote like "Nadir Shah spoke Afshar"? I only see Linguistically, Afshārī is classified as a dialect belonging to the South Oghuz group of Turkic languages (southwestern branch of Turkic) (Johanson, History of Turkic, 82–3), or else as a dialect of South Azerbaijani (Azeri) which talks about a dialect/language spoken today. Out of context.

I changed it yes, but I can't remember if I made the original contribution, and corrected it according the quote. The terms Oghuz / Turkmen (Turkoman, etc.) are used interchangeably anyways. WP:SYNTH claim is funny because you got the source and quote of Minorsky, while you're doing it exactly: Nader Shah was an Afshar, mentioned in the source about Afshars, where Stöbber also talks about their dialect Beshogur (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH claim is funny because you got the source and quote of Minorsky, while you're doing it exactly

Yes, it's so funny that you refuse to address it. Here's another chance to do it; Nader Shah due to being an Afshar, is obviously mentioned in Stöbbers source about Afshars, where he talks about their dialect. It doesn't get anymore obvious. If you think Nader Shah didn't speak the language/dialect of his own tribe, please prove it through WP:RS.

which talks about a dialect/language spoken today. Out of context.

So their dialect suddenly became part of another language throughout time / changed heavily? I assume you have the WP:RS to back that up? Because Stöbber doesn't mention it.

The terms Oghuz / Turkmen (Turkoman, etc.) are used interchangeably anyways.

So why did you change it to less known version, and not even linking it? Turkmen isn't only a synonym for Oghuz [6]. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: how does this conflicting statement makes sense since some classify it as a dialect Azerbaijani if Azerbaijani is western? And your edit summary says: Rv, Azerbaijani is a western oghuz language, not a southern turcoman one

These southern/northern/eastern/western classifications is also subjective since every linguist has its own classification. [7] Doerfer (2006) referred to Azeri as Central Oghuz for example.

So why did you change it to less known version, and not even linking it? Turkmen isn't only a synonym for Oghuz Because both terms were used interchangeably.

I'm still waiting for the quote. Beshogur (talk) 00:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

how does this conflicting statement makes sense since some classify it as a dialect Azerbaijani if Azerbaijani is western? And your edit summary says: Rv, Azerbaijani is a western oghuz language, not a southern turcoman one

Did you think I was Wikaviani..? And I don't understand what you're saying.

I'm still waiting for the quote.

You're now deliberately WP:STONEWALLING. First you implied that Nader Shah didn't even speak Afshar, and then you implied that the Afshari language/dialect of back then was vastly different from now, neither of which you have thus far been able to prove with WP:RS. In other words, you're digging a hole here. Are you going to show WP:RS for your claims or not? HistoryofIran (talk) 00:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Stop putting things that I never said. You're telling "Nader Shah didn't speak" 4 times here. The article Afshar dialect doesn't even have an extensive information. Does not mention Nadir Shah single time, it's even dubious that the source you've put says something like "Nadir Shah spoke x language", plus removing Minorsky, who states like that exactly. neither of which you have thus far been able to prove with WP:RS you're literally removing a reliable source with its quote. Do you think Minorsky is considered unreliable? Beshogur (talk) 00:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Stop putting things that I never said.

Then say what you mean, and properly, instead of beating around the bush.

The article Afshar dialect doesn't even have an extensive information. Does not mention Nadir Shah single time, it's even dubious that the source you've put says something like "Nadir Shah spoke x language", plus removing Minorsky, who states like that exactly.

This for example, is not proper. What are you trying to imply then, if not that Nader Shah didn't speak Afshar?

removing Minorsky, who states like that exactly.

Back at square one. Yes, I removed Minorsky, instead adding a source (which following your own words, is in a period where more research has done) which not only says what Minorsky said (that it could be a Southern Oghuz language), but also that it could be Azeri language, the theory which you so much support. Do you get it now? In other words, I added the two theories (Azeri v Southern Oghuz), instead of there only being the one theory (Southern Oghuz). HistoryofIran (talk) 01:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I removed Minorsky, instead adding a source (which following your own words, is in a period where more research has done) you still can't provide the quote like "Nadir Shah spoke x", while it talks about the classification of Afshar tongue. I am also telling that language classification is subjective. This is not a theory but view. Beshogur (talk) 09:53, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

This is nearing WP:IDHT and WP:REHASH territory now. I’m not going to repeat myself about that source, since you will ignore it again. You’re clearly indicating that Nader Shah didnt speak Afshar. Do you have a WP:RS that supports that, yes or no? HistoryofIran (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, let's say that according to the Wiki article of these languages, Azerbaijani is a Western Oghuz language and since this is quite well-sourced in the relevant article, I don't see why I should have any doubt.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: [8] do you know about this? What's the full quote? I can not find anything here or am I looking wrong? Beshogur (talk) 12:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

You're digging again, I just gave you the quote earlier, directly from the EI3 article. Or are not one but two veteran users now lying about the source? HistoryofIran (talk) 12:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Digging what. You should stop with those personal attacks. That particular quote doesn't verify anything about Nadir Shah but talks about the Afshar dialect. And yes I want to see what else is mentioned in the source as you claim Nader Shah due to being an Afshar, is obviously mentioned in Stöbbers source about Afshars. Beshogur (talk) 13:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

It is digging when you suddenly tag another user, questioning the validity of the quote, despite me also citing the quote earlier. You're also contradicting yourself, why is it suddenly important for you to confirm that Nader Shah is mentioned, when you insist on that Stöbber needs to make the obvious even more obvious and directly mention that Nader Shah spoke Afshar? Also, the reason you can't find it in the afromentioned Archive.org link is because it starts from the letter L. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I tag him because you're not listening to me and providing the full quote. The quote only talks about the classification of Afshar dialect, not Nadir Shah. I am asking him because he may tell? when you insist on that Stöbber needs to make the obvious even more obvious and directly mention that Nader Shah spoke Afshar Yes I need that exactly. Maybe help? Also you should read your edit on the main page again. The sentences before and after. Doesn't make sense. Beshogur (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I tag him because you're not listening to me and providing the full quote.

Except you never asked me for the full quote, so that's not the reason. LouisAragon's addition is the full quote about the Afshar language/dialect though. It doesn't say anything more about it before nor after.

The quote only talks about the classification of Afshar dialect, not Nadir Shah. I am asking him because he may tell?

He doesn't directly mention Nader Shah and the language in the way you personally want it. That was already pretty clear from the beginning of our discussion. Though as I said, Nader Shah is (obviously) also mentioned in the source, many times, eg; "When Nādir Shāh (d. 1160/1747), himself a Qirqlū Afshār, established the Afshārid dynasty (1148–1210/1736–95), some Afshār nobles became important as office holders (e.g., Imām Qulī Khān became the governor of Ardabīl (and possibly later of Urmiya)) (Tapper,107)."

Yes I need that exactly.

Seems you're the only one. You're still yet to prove that Nader Shah didn't speak Afshar, i.e. more WP:STONEWALLING.

Also you should read your edit on the main page again. The sentences before and after. Doesn't make sense.

Feel free to clarify. If it's a wording issue that can easily get improved, eg; "Nader Shah's tribe spoke the Afshar dialect, which is categorized either as a dialect of the Southern Oghuz group or a dialect of Azerbaijani." HistoryofIran (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2024 (UTC)